In At The Deep End…

 

There is a whole range of situations that look completely different in real life situation than in the survival ‘realm’ on youtube.

It is normal that you can not bring full scale of reality in training situation but still some things needs to be shown more real then they are shown in usual shows over internet.

I watched few days ago couple videos and read some stuff about (safe) river crossing in survival situations, and noticed some things.

I will mention most important:

Common sense (yes, common sense… again)

First majority of those videos and articles describe river crossings in wilderness survival situations, and while some of those are pretty good and gives you good advices about basic stuff like how deep, how wide, what kind of ground (under the water), how fast, safest places to cross etc they are forgetting to mention urban river (survival) crossing.

In urban river crossing there is whole new set of things to think about like polluted water, garbage and different kind of stuff in (like car wreck for example)  in river bed (that can give you lot of troubles).

Also videos usually shows rivers that are up to your waist deep, or rivers not too wide (so you can use fallen log to cross it)…

But just like with all other internet survival one thing in those scenarios is missing – other people.

If your survival situation will include river crossing in the middle of day in peaceful country settings, where there is no single soul (with possible bad intentions to you) except you and only noise is birds singing etc. you are lucky man, but most probably it is not gonna be like that.

Forget about videos of shooting anchor with rope over the river and crossing it like that unless you are SAS (in good condition), in reality most of us can not do that.

Also most of the river in urban settings (and lot of in wilderness settings) can not be crossed by „fallen log“.

Either there is no fallen log, or you do not have time to look for it, or it is pitch dark, or simply river is too wide for fucking „fallen log“.

Instead of looking for a fancy solution of survival rivers crossing immediately I suggest you (just like with all other survival tecniques) go from the start, from the very basic.

Check your survival plans (you bug out route for example) and see what kind of rivers are there.

Do not forget to include area that may be your secondary or tertiary choice for bugging out, remember that plan is only that – plan.

Now see what kind of rivers are there on your way, what kind of river beds, what banks are (remember sometimes what it looks like good aproach to river may be mud hell where you can at least lose your shoes if not even something more important).

There are huge differences between „wild“ rivers and rivers (in urban settings) where river bed is controlled and paved or similar. Walking through those rivers are different, approach too.

Good advice too is to think about bridge as a first and easiest crossing over the river, take that as a start and then check possible pros and cons for crossing particular river over the particular bridge.

In other words do not go and drown yourself because you try to swim over dangerous river just because you felt very „survivalist“ while there is a bridge standing close without any danger of passing over that bridge.

Forget being fancy-use common sense and choose less danger in particular situation.

Internet survival  techniques

Lot of techniques that works beautiful on internet turns out like into shit and mess in real life, and reason for that is simple: most of the internet survival techniques are based on „philosophical“ or fictional scenarios and can not include all possible real life factors.

Simply- reality can throw on you much more factors that you did not think about.

Still it is not reason not to learn and prepare for different situations.

I can share with you  my experiences about „survival river crossings“, my experience is quite different, and actually not smart at all, but i think there is lessons to be learned.

Swimming

It was around 3am and I was in the part of the town where I should not been in that time of the night, simply because I should be home earlier then that.

I would like to say that I was there to trade, find food, scavenge or fight-it would sounds more „survival“ for the sake of this article and blog but truth was that I was there to see a girl that i like a lot.

On my way back I found myself into the one of sudden raids. A 50 man group attacked the street and I run from them through ruined houses and found myself on the bank of the river (Pictured above).

I always kinda hated that river-I liked the river but I hated how cold, fast and treacherous that river can be.

It was pitch dark and I crawled downhill some 20 meters through small willow trees, and bush on huge stones that stands on a bank (no fucking fallen log there, so you know…)

I crawled through something smelly and soft, I felt like all was rotten in that bush.

I could see river, small waves were wetting my shoes, and I was standing on slippery stone holding willow branch with one hand.

River bed is mix of huge stones and sand, and depth is going from 30 cm to 3 meters- depending on size of stones, stones go very „steep“ so you can actually swim under the stone (and probably drown there) or simply strange current and whirlpool will do that for you, roll you and pull you under the stone and drown you there, or simply throw you on the stone and smash your head. It can be dangerous river for experienced swimmer in broad daylight and swimming suit.

I tried to see what is on other bank-some 20-25 meters far, tracer round flashes reflects on my eyes and all I could see is darkness on other bank and something moving in darkness, same willow trees or people with rifles, or maybe is my imagination, in that time and situation seeing a guy selling popcorn on the other side would not be surprising how my imagination worked.

I expected any moment that enemy would shoot me, so adrenaline worked hard .

I had backpack which was almost empty, 22 rifle which was duct taped (two screws that holding steel part together with wooden part were „worn off“ so it was duct taped to hold it together) tobbaco box and some 15 bullets in pockets.

As I heard guy approaching to my place I hesitated for a second or two thinking what to do then I put rifle over my chest and jumped into the river.

And I immediately started to drown.

Shock of freezing river somehow „turned off“ my adrenaline surge, and my thought was „I am gonna die now“.

Next second river „took“ me and roll me all over and I felt my rifle sling is choking me, if I had enough voice and strength I would yell „help“ to the guys that I wanted to run from, but at that time I simply had no ‘voice’.

Crossing that river was not swimming-it was drowning, it took maybe 20 seconds for me to get to the other side, but it was way longer for me, and I ended up some 100 meters downstream.

Several times river throw me on big stones, I was trying to loosen my rifle sling all the time and when I finally managed to grab stone with my hands and stop the crazy movement I was not even sure am I on the same river bank or I actually crossed river onto the other bank.

I was holding the stone for some 10 minutes probably, then slowly crawl from the river.

I was on the other bank, I was frantically holding rifle sling, the rifle was falling apart, steel part was separated from wooden part.

I lost my backpack, my tobacco box too. I did not see from one eye because it was full of blood from big wound on forehead.

Later I figured I broke two fingers and rib too.

But I was alive, and on the other side. I had huge luck.

Point of the story is that sometimes crossing the river may look much more complicated and dangerous then finding fallen log.

And very often crossing river is like lot of situations in real survival-be ready to leave everything and take just your life.

Or things that you like may pull you down and drown you.

Or point of the story is to carry heavy duty trash bag with you all the time so you can use it to put all your stuff inside and try to swim then…?

 

Toby Comment – Without going into to much detail just now, River crossings are one of the subjects we cover in our field based courses. It is surprising for us to consistently see folks have not factored this concept in at all to their plans, and even when doing so, struggle to often acknowledge the ‘time sensitivity’ that, in reality, comes with river crossings.

If it is of interest we can write a full article on this subject, please just comment below with your thoughts on this matter…

 

 

22 responses to “In At The Deep End…”

  1. anonymous says:

    Good topic, a subject not often mentioned.

    I noticed in many of the hurricane aftermath footage of Hurricane Harvey (Houston, Texas) they showed quite a few people with ice chest coolers wading around. I wondered if these were used as flotation devices or simply containers to carry items back to their base location. Maybe both ?

    Several books have described using the U.S. military 5 quart bladder canteens as an aid for water crossings. An empty bladder, blown into to inflate and closed then attached to upper body gave extra bouyancy.

  2. Benjammin says:

    This is more of a general comment from reading the first few sentences of this blogpost. A lot of the survival training I’ve seen is as relevant to actual survival as Boot Camp is to preparing for combat. The more you actually have to face the situation, the better the knowledge you will gain. Firefighting school was a lot better because we actually had to use equipment and techniques to fight various fires. Going into a structure deliberately filled with jet fuel and set ablaze with a water hose and someone standing next to you telling you what to do is almost as good as the real thing. Watching a video of someone doing it, not so much. How real the training can be made will determine how well you will think your way through unique situations where the skills you developed can be adapted and applied effectively. You can go to the range and practice your shooting drills till your guns jam from the filth, but you will never know how to fight in combat until you are shooting at someone who is shooting back at you. Getting shot with a non-lethal but painful round while doing combat drills will make a tremendous difference in your training perspective, and you have the advantage that you will survive getting shot as well, but will always remember it and why it happened. Like Nick Nolte said in Tropic Thunder, “If you want them to know what it’s really like, get them into the SH#T.”

  3. Bwhntr62 says:

    Selco

    As always this article is what makes your blog so insightful and pertinent to actual SHTF situations. I have never been in a real life SHTF deal, but what I have gleaned from you writings makes me look at everything from a far more reaslictc apprasiel. Thanks for that. It is invaluable.

  4. BobW says:

    Curious discussion about getting across a river. Not sure how ‘fleeing for your life’ across a river aligns with a deliberate water crossing. I haven’t seen the ‘fucking tree’ videos you mentioned, but I guess I see fleeing and water crossing as generally distinct events. I’ve crossed rivers with poncho wrapped packs (ghetto rafts), and crawled across ropes (yes, someone had to swim the river to anchor it). Those are deliberate methods to get across a river. Diving in and hoping for the best is an emergent decision based on a presumed life-threatening situation.

    Before everyone gets all worked up on the use of “presumed”, understand, I wasn’t there, and in his words, Selco presumed those guys were there to kill everyone. He fled to live another day. I would have too.

    But that has little to do with deliberately crossing a body of water, and everything to do with surviving.

    I don’t really recall the manual, but there is a US army manual on riverine operations. I’m spelling it wrong, but its out there. Its old, but anymore, seems like most good information is.

    Look to add 100′ of good, durable rope, and always a carabiner or two for anchoring a rope. Getting up things, down things, or across things, a decent rope (note I didn’t say cheap) is a useful item to have hooked to the pack when the balloon goes up.

    • Selco says:

      Thanks Bob.

      Actually it is simple, I cross the water deliberately because I simply made that decision because otherwise I might end up dead.
      You see fleeing and water crossing as” generally distinct events” because probably you are “planning” your decisions for future shtf, which is good but in reality does not work out always.
      I mentioned event where you can not plan too much things because simply situation force you that you bring decisions in split seconds, and you are not prepared for it.

      Fallen log, good neighbors, police force, help from government or time to think about your next step are good things, but very often not there where you need it.

      Sometimes one heavy duty trash bag (from your pocket) solve all things because it is simply all the time with you.

  5. BobW says:

    I can’t agree more, Selco. You are very right that I am looking forward (deliberate) vs jumping in (hasty).

    In the moment, everyone must do what they must if they want to live.

  6. Bruce Beach says:

    You know, Selco, I think you always write the best “Been there – done that”, info of anyone that I am aware of. But, the thing that concerns me about almost all survivalist literature is that it is about the survival of individuals who are healthy, and to be honest about it – selfish. I agree with you about the remote wilderness thing. They aren’t going to get there and there aren’t enough rabbits in the woods to feed the millions fleeing the cities, anyway.

    But, the things is – there is no way that I am going to get my ninety year old wife across any river. In fact, most 80, 70, 60, 50 year old guys aren’t in shape to make it either. But, it is not just them. I am more concerned about the young pregnant female or the the mother with a couple of young kids. Forget the gal in a wheelchair. Okay, I admit it, under most such survival plans such types aren’t going to make it anyway. Maybe we are looking at a world of survivors that are self-centered sociopaths.

    Not much thought in all that about the old seaman rule – “Save the women and children first!” But, never mind. Just an old world attitude that I keep trying to push, that what is needed for their survival, and anyone’s survival is to immediately organize communities of survivors.

    A lot of “Buts” in there and no one is really needing, or at least wanting, to hear my early morning rant about the kind of world that we are coming into, and what we really need to do. Still, it is such thoughts that have me up in the middle of the night.

    Unity and Love,
    Bruce

  7. Redneckrod says:

    Actually Bob, “Fleeing for your life across a river” and a deliberate river crossing have everything in common. There are only three types of crossings…deliberate, hasty, and retrograde. The fundamentals of all three are the same. You are, after all, crossing a river no matter what you call it. The only difference is, time spent planning and direction of travel. Fleeing for your life across a river would, obviously, fall under the retrograde crossing. If you were on the offense and jumped in the river chasing the enemy, that would be a hasty river crossing. It’s not that complicated and it’s all basically the same.
    In the end, you are trying to get from one bank to the other. To get caught up in the semantics of deliberate, hasty, retrograde, or fleeing for your life across a river, is to over complicate the affair. BTW it’s FM 90-13.

  8. HABCAN says:

    Selco, I think the pertinent note in this whole essay/discussion is “heavy-duty trash bag”, the one(s) that is/are ALWAYS prepped in your pack, the pack that is ALWAYS with you, in this case to be used as a flotation device. It’s not about the ‘why’, it’s about the ‘how’ you can cross this river obstacle NOW. We all need to have thought of this. Thank you for mentioning it!!

  9. DonnaS says:

    Hi,
    In response to Toby, I would love a full article about this. I am living in a large city, and my bug out location is across the Mississippi River, partly because it will be so difficult for most in the big city to cross. I’m not expecting a bridge crossing to be safe and would love to hear thoughts from this trusted source.

  10. Emsmiller says:

    To Anonymous, we use the coolers to protect what’s inside and as a flotation aid. Thankfully did not have to go thru Harvey but been thru hurricanes and tropical storms on the Texas Gulf Coast. As far as bags go, they need to be durable. Lots of debris that can tear bags. Another reason to use coolers is if you step into really deep water it will help you get back to surface. If I was to use bags as flotation, I would use waterproof pack bags like for the ALICE pack.

  11. anonymous says:

    Anon 10:42 here – Thank you for your reply. I had forgotten about those pack liners, I have a few of these already but never considered them for this purpose.

  12. Cyrus says:

    When I read about the trash bag my first thought was, forget keeping things dry; catch some air in it and use it to float. The US Navy teaches sailors to use their uniforms to make air pockets as flotation devices if they are forced to tread water.

  13. Grampa says:

    If anyone was watching all of trod’s the path of survival. with each breath from birth we continue to that final breath we call death. in between it is the events that determine its length. it is only the proper use of knowledge that many call wisdom that allows us the ease or difficulty of our path. Each acquisition of knowledge and its use has formed our civilization. the balance that keeps us stable is dependent on increasing variables. interruption of any of these and the balance collapses..if we are not able to step back and assume a life with simpler needs our civilization built will collapse. it will not be the zombie that will be our concern but the hungry. to understand look at the amount of food that flows into a city. along with it how much waste flows out. no tool or tin full of gadgets will help you survive. at this point you still have a choice. when knowledge weighs nothing why do so many bear the burden of ignorance. having the knowledge may be an advantage but having the tools and skills to use it is another. Mankind first formed the family unit to survive. this is the most basic unit needed to survive. as history has shown this isnt always a success. it requires innovation and the ability to adapt. this is the biggest secret for survival believing that packing the small do all gadgets into the Altoids tin will help you survive will be among the first to perish. to see what is most valuable we may look at animals who carry no tools. simple things such as being invisible figures into survival. surviving the elements is another and knowing what you can eat. many will starve with food at their feet. the subject matter may not be as entertaining as the latest soap on TV but knowledge of the land on which you live may keep you alive long enough to adapt to your new existence. to survive will be necessary to change. the people who wont or cant will die despite the do-all tool in your pocket
    Grampa

  14. Twincougars says:

    Don’t forget seasonal changes in the river. Suppose there is a river between your job or home and your bugout retreat. Suppose when you scope it out it is late summer, and river is shallow and rocky, so could cross on foot and maybe get wet to your knees. So you think, well if the bridge is out or guarded, I can cross the river OK. Then SHTF in spring and the river is now 12 ft. deep. OOPS!! Plan B, use bridge but maybe climb though supporting beam structure rather than going over paved part being watched.

  15. Miguel says:

    Reading the article, I realized how foolish and impossible it would be for me to try to cross the river here in the city .. Thanks for the article and the reality clash! Please write a full article on this subject. From Brazil.

  16. Desert Fox says:

    Anyone in their right mind would pause and assess the situation before plunging ahead! If you have your family with you…you don’t cross…even if it’s only you, there needs to be a plan…You are fleeing danger to save yourself so it makes no sense to jump in to your demise! If you live near a river that is large, plan ahead or stay on this side!

    P.s. keep it a little clean!

  17. Christopher D Holmes says:

    My brothers and I are outdoor enthusiast. I like primitive camping but have done some crazy car camping after hiking a bit or hanging out on the banks of a lake. Growing up in the country most of my childhood from thick eastern forest down to bayous of the Gulf of Mexico has given us some fun and scary adventures. The River and stream has always seemed a challenge worth going after for me and my brothers when we go camping. It is fascinating that it seems so simple and yet every time we do it for the past 30 years it is always a bit of an adrenaline rush. So much can go wrong. One slippery rock leads to a sprain or break that can cripple in even a non survival situation. I remember we crossed a small bayou creek that was maybe 50 ft across. It was a boat area so fairly deep. There was no ice and it was April in the south so probably mid 60F – 70F. We all decided we did not want to hike 4 miles to the bridge back the way we came and would deal with hiking straight 30 min wet and cold back to the house. The shock from that water knocked the breath out of everyone. One of my friends almost drowned because he sucked in water. We made it across but was the stupidest and scariest thing we have probably ever done. We were near Hypothermia or in early stages probably before getting across which took only 2-3 min. Mind you we were healthy teens who lived in the outdoors and we almost had two deaths in the middle of the day in good weather. DO NOT UNDERESTIMATE WATER CROSSING. One rusty can, one slippery rock, one pissed off snake, all of which you probably will not see not to mention weather conditions, daylight conditions, hypothermia, wet gear. It can be brutal. The next 10 hours could be just dealing with getting everything dry and safe again. Don’t think you will cross and then be back on your way. Go camping and try it out. Have a first aid kit and preferably a state park station near by to give medical assistance. Sure some of them were as easy as taking off our shoes and walking across with pants a bit damp. But there have been just as many scary almost fall over with a heavy pack pulling on you while the water is pushing in every direction and then you have to climb up and out using all of your strength and teamwork.

  18. Nick says:

    A little off topic, but I just went through Hurricane Irma here in Florida. It was only a Cat 2 when it got to me, but it still tested what I thought were years of plans. Notably, what I thought “prepared” was.

    For years I have planned and equipped for a long-term bug-in based on a societal collapse. Irma proved all that worthless. I can’t stay in my little house during a hurricane because it’s surrounded by very huge and dangerous trees, so I had to bug out. It’s then I realized that I had a good get-home bag, but not a good bugout bag. I had to slam one together quickly. It worked, but it showed a gap in my plans. I have now set up something that Selco talked about in one of his courses… have a lot of little bags on a shelf near your door so you can grab the item-groups you need and shove them in a backpack as you fly out the door. Very good advice. I also REALLY learned that stockpiling stuff in one location is bad… when you bug out, you have to leave it all. Yes, we have all known this for a while… but how many of us have faced it in reality? How many supply bags do you have stashed with friends in different locations? Could you get to them if SHTF? (hurricanes drop trees across roads with regularity, and curfews come into play… could you even get to a safe place with your stash or to a waiting stash?) Since I can’t currently afford an alternate bugout location, there is much to consider… and being faced with evacuating my house during a looming hurricane was a real eye-opener. God bless and help the people of Houston… they went through MUCH worse than we did in Florida.

    Just some thoughts for the Team here. Try it… give yourself 30 minutes to get out the door and leave everything behind. What do you NEED to take? Face the emotions of leaving everything else behind you. Then, as you are driving away, start thinking. Go somewhere and sit for a few hours and think. Write down notes (I have 3 pages of what I learned from this hurricane). Then return and start changing things. Repeat until you’re satisfied you have a good system.

    This storm woke me up. I thought after years of “prepping”, I was prepped… I’m not. I’m grateful our damage here was limited… I’m also grateful for the “damage” the storm did to my confidence in my preps. I needed it. I have much work to do.

    Good to see you pop up again, Selco. Had not heard from you in a while, was getting concerned about you. Tell us what’s been going on if you care to.

    God bless.

    • Selco says:

      Thank you Nick!
      I am glad you are went OK trough that chaos there, it looked bad, being in all that was much worse then it looked i am sure.

      It also looked that you figured some very important points, and i absolutely agree with what you said, actually i ll try to point out and “reinforce” stuff that you mention ( i mentioned that before many times) in one of the next articles.

      There is nothing like real experience, you tested yourself and your prepping system, and you clearly saw what you need to change.

      Yes, life here simply can be too much, so it is about real life.

  19. John Sloane says:

    Hello Selco,

    Good to see your post and two at the same time.

    Some long long random thoughts: To add a little to the clothing as a floatation device from the previous post, tie the pant leg ends into a knot, scoop air into pants and tie off the waist end. Oblivious, but it takes a little practice while in the water after you tie off your shoes together. Zippered pockets are good. I learned that in boot camp when being thrown in a large pool with fifty other non-swimmers. You had to stay afloat for a minute or two so Lesson Two stay away from a drowning swimmer who will use you as a floatation device.

    A dog paddle or floating on your back kicking your feet will use less energy than an over hand stroke. Again, obvious but I learned that from being caught in a tidal rip current. Except to be a couple of hundred yards down the beach from where you were afterwards and in my case without glasses. During SHTF have a lot of extra (polarized/light tinted) glasses with straps.

    A note on river crossing in battle, see the scene in the movie “A Bridge Too Far” where while paddling into gunfire one actor is repeating the same phase over and over and over. A retired paratrooper told me the sound of a wire rope hitting metal makes him queasy as it reminds him of the release line jumping out the door.

    A Gerber Mark II double blade a stiletto attached vertically handle down on your pack back’s front vertical strap opposite from your dominate hand is useful if you are caught on something like underwater vines or I know … your pack. Quick release buckets are good but for me when panicking I have no hand finger dexterity since they’re shaking too much. Tunnel vision. (Sic, David Grossman’s book “On Killing” first page, first sentence. paraphrased “During your first gun fight you will ‘poop’ in your pants”. Thought I share that with you-all.)

    Getting off the subject: Also, a heavy back pack when you are rolling on the ground from a practice ambush will make you look like a pathetic turtle on its shell. Side note to ambushes, life expectancy is about four to nine seconds, in a bar fight four seconds, go figure, so the best from what I been told is to charge the enemy as that may be what they least except. Doing the unexpected may help.
    One experience in being robbed as a child. Usually it’s two persons behind you and one in front asking how much money do you have? In this case for some reason, I said to the six foot gentleman with the cocaine scars under his eyes to “Cut the sh*t” while in a friendly way punching him in the shoulder. While the two behind me were laughing at the front guy for picking a fool to mug I ran screaming like a little girl. You could have heard me in the next district. A friend going thru a subway turnstile had a similar experience, two in the back one in front but with razors since people carry what they fear most (being quartered, one horizontal and a vertical cut to the abdomen.) He explained only one would enjoy what he had. They backed off. The point is sometimes doing the unexpected will give you a few seconds’ advantage. William S. Lind explained the group that adapts faster in a conflict usually wins. Over simplified, during the beginning of WWII in the Pacific the kill ratio was three to one in flavor of the Americans but by Okinawa it was reversed as the Japanese adapted better in tactics.
    Btw, when being mugged don’t start crying as that will only get you beat up badly as I believe “bad people” like to hurt the weak.

    Hurricane Irma: Being in the northern part of the state wasn’t too bad in hindsight but Lesson learned, evacuees from the approaching hurricane leaving will come back and clean out anything they didn’t the first time leaving the indigenous population high and dry. Referring to the evacuees as “Locusts”, no disrespect intended to the unprepared rolling masses, they suddenly descended before I expected six days ahead of hurricane landfall. No gas, empty supermarket shelves (after water and toilet paper, fruit cocktail is a popular item), massive traffic jams not only on the main highways but this time everywhere in-between the highways which surprised me was life for a few days here. Again, the almost coast to coast bottleneck of people and cars in north central Florida affecting the residents was usual. One tank of gas will get you from say, Miami, to roughly the state border. Hence, the traffic jam in one place and the hundreds (?) of thousand cars looking for gas.

    The main point for SHTF Blog is to consider what it would be like Bugging Out in a Tidal Wave of People.

    Would it be better to stay in place or anticipate way in advance the best you could to avoid getting caught in a mass of unprepared panicking people? I remember during a hurricane while in a coastal town in Florida the local municipality ordered a mandatory evacuation. About 50,000+ motorists were bumper to bumper on Interstate 4 from Daytona Beach to Orlando. Worst case scenario, what if the hurricane, and it was huge, made landfall? The effect of the category five winds inland would have been unthinkable.

    Keeping with the theme of a water crossing and this analogy is a little off, the time a lot of stranded swimmers drown is in the final moments of reaching the shoreline. They’re exhausted and in a rush only to be pulled under by the beach waves. There’s also the danger of being grind by the coral and debris under the waves. This is how I imagine bugging out with a wave(s) of evacuees.

    And after leaving they’ll came back to hinder any relief or rescue operations. And take any fruit cocktail left.
    I attribute some of the panic to bad MSM weather forecasting, Arstechnica.com had the closest hurricane path model, the Europe UK model. The local authorities were slow to open the Interstate highway’s southbound lanes to northbound traffic which would have opened the stream faster. So, depend on yourself first before expecting others to advise you.

    As far the hurricane went the aftereffects flooding, lack of utilities and still falling trees were just as bad as the hurricane. In Florida, just as in some of your area Selco there are Karst formations, limestone rock strata that dissolve with water and form sinkholes. There was a warning for a major Interstate highway of being closed due to possible holes opening from flood waters.

    Thanks for letting me post.

    I attribute the long-winded verbiage above to being thru too many hurricanes contacts, kinda like a Post Stress Hurricane Syndrome. You won’t realize each hurricane will build up residue anxiety. Of course, TV weather forecasters will only be too happy to help with that, good for ratings and people spending money for hurricane supplies.

  20. John Sloane says:

    Ps.
    Crossing a river in Florida … the occasional alligator but more likely water moccasin, copperhead, rattlesnake or coral snake. And now the invasive boa constrictor.

    But not so bad compared to New Orleans when Hurricane Katrina flood waters released piranha into the waterways.

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